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 Zealots Subscription Model
Author: EJ 
Date:   10-14-10 23:36

Hi folks, sorry I haven't contributed to the forum in quite some time; I'm glad to see this is still the oasis of civility and community that I hoped it would be.

Let me speak to some of the questions regarding the new Zealots Lounge subscription model, or René's objection to the 'principle' of it (by which I guess you mean the 'principle' of making my music world more exclusive, and the counter-intuitive notion of actually limiting access to my creative output?).  The idea is based on the acceptance of several realities, the most fundamental one being that I never have, and probably never will break through to the 'general public,' nor should I probably ever try to.  I am simply not in the same business as Lady Gaga, Usher, or Susan Boyle; I'm not really even in the same business as anyone appearing at the Grammys or at the ASCAP awards; yet the old model still expects us professionals to produce and manufacture retail product; to aim for commercial hits; that the casual WalMart shopper might pass our CD in the rack and 'impulse buy' it; or that the man in the street will walk-up to the concert box-office the night of a show on a spur-of-the-moment decision to check out the electric-violin band inside.

In reality, none of it works that way for musicians like me... though my base is growing nicely, musicians like me essentially perform and sell to the same group of ardent fans, not to the casual music buyer.  Furthermore, I don't have a big brand name like Genesis or Jethro Tull to ride on, or a well-known 'hit' to be marketed with; I don't have a 20-year track-record of sold-out money-making shows in your home town; I've never even been to the Grammys... what I DO have is a small, yet loyal fan base of knowledgeable folks in some 50 countries on whom I will need to increasingly rely for support if I am to remain in the business of being an independent recording artist.  So, given that music sales are in a steep decline; that the physical disc will become obsolete; that the album itself or audio-only product is beginning its dying throes; it seems that one answer is to develop a more direct and more committed two-way relationship with the folks who truly support what I am trying to do, and try to provide a broad range of content just for those serious fans.  That means that, ideally, I get to do what we used to do in the '70s: write, produce, and perform with minimal commercial pressure or expectation of mainstream recognition, and that my true supporters help to directly encourage the continuation of that creative environment.  This is not unlike the support model for many of the classical composers in their day - except that YOU play the role of Nadezhda von Meck or Prince Leopold!

Rather than, once a year, simply buying a single CD (from which I may see $3) or a concert ticket (90% of which will go to 'expenses'), it seems like a more complete experience for everyone involved if my supporters commit to being modern-day patrons of the arts with a small annual subscription to access the Lounge.  In return, I make more content available (which is all very time and cost intensive), including old and new recordings, film and video footage, video chats(?), Q & A, master classes, exclusive bonus tracks, meet'n'greet events, and of course - new music... all for minimal cost, or free.  The idea is that committing to buying one or two products a year from the Zealots' Store will easily cover the subscription cost, while at the same time provide a direct, consistent and active role in supporting my efforts.  That is the 'principle' here.  I can go back and work for Paramount Pictures providing hours of underscore, or I can work for you, the fans -- the subscription model is a contract of mutual commitment.  As the traditional music industry model collapses, something has to change, and I think this is the way to go.

I humbly invite everyone to not only get on this train with me, but to appoint yourselves as ambassadors to the cause and help rally more and more Zealots! The more Zealots we have, the more productive and interactive the community will be, and the more music, videos, and concerts I can produce.  I am even exploring the idea of a music festival and international Zealots convention, if we can drum up enough people!  Together, we can bypass the industry charlatans, push back against the mega-marketing of puppets, and you can help me to try to teach and inspire the next generation of music makers and innovators.  Please join me.  (And, René... please stop kvetching, and sign up with PayPal already.)

Eddie



Post Edited (10-18-10 22:40)

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Dicky 
Date:   10-15-10 00:15

Thank you Eddie!
You can count on me.

DICKY

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Faas 
Date:   10-15-10 00:27

Where's the link to lifetime subscription? ;-)

Right behind you, Eddie

(or actually right behind Dicky)

Marcel

The Netherlands

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: ferrari801 
Date:   10-15-10 00:36

This is a no brainer guys,If you only buy the new live cd at the much reduced cost it gives return on the paltry amount charged for Zealots subscription.I would gladly pay $100 a year for the chance to be involved in some of what Eddie is planning.We are in times where people expect everything for free,Where so called critics sit in their comfortable chairs firing of faceless critique without having to contribute anything of worth.IMHO Eddie is one of the few genuinely gifted musicians alive today and i for one am 100% with him all the way.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Helen 
Date:   10-15-10 02:08

Thank you, Eddie. Being able to read something written by you in a long while is worth this entire debate. I'm sure that's what Zealots Lounge is all about, so thank you!

Helen

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Yasu 
Date:   10-15-10 02:23

Thank you,Eddie!!!

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Patric 
Date:   10-15-10 03:43

Very well said Eddie, I completely get it now. I will make the subscription to the Zealots Lounge my birthday gift to me every year.

Best wishes, Bill

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: benonemusic 
Date:   10-15-10 05:26

Eddie,
Many thanks for the post. Very exciting to read about all the possibilities for the Zealot Lounge. Once again, you have provided both new ideas and perspectives above and beyond what I could imagine. Consider me both a Zealot and ambassador!
Ben

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Corbie 
Date:   10-15-10 06:53

I'm in. Bring it on!

Can I be Prince Leopold, please?

Bit sad about you not being in the same business as Susan Boyle, though, Eddie. I had a fiver on her being in one of the future UZ line-ups. Damn.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: C.Cat 
Date:   10-15-10 08:13

Last night I was talking to one of my friends about the return of music patronage, I think it's a great idea.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: ferrari801 
Date:   10-15-10 09:52

Mc UKZ !!!!!! with the Boyle on vocs !! what next Radiation the Timberlake remix !!! Love it

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Rafael Electric 
Date:   10-15-10 10:59

Right on the Spot.
Count me in Eddie.
All the Best!!!

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: luis32957 
Date:   10-15-10 14:19

yo!!!! folks wake up the times are showing some crazy changes
in the music scene, and not very good.....EJ we support you
bring it on...... can't wait for the live cd.....the videos are damn great!!!
thanks much

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Mike Piazza 
Date:   10-15-10 14:28

Eddie,
Thank You !
Thank You !
Thank You !

Consider me Ambassador Piazza in New York City !
I will always maintain both a membership and an active role in attracting new Zealot members !!!

My wife Loretta and I truly appreciate this new model that is so necessary in this ever changing world !!!

I say....Nicely Done !

looking forward to the future of UKZ/UZ Projects....

Cheers !

Mike Piazza

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: rendezvous 
Date:   10-16-10 18:29


Thank you, EJ!
I am with you.
A festival & international zealots convention?
That would be great!

Jeehoon
Toronto



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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: miar 
Date:   10-17-10 09:36

Thank you, Eddie!
You can definitely count on me :=)

Mia


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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: editionsblue 
Date:   10-17-10 12:37

that's very eloquent and persuasive Eddie. We are privileged fans. A convention sounds a great idea!
Julie

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: none too soon 
Date:   10-18-10 11:53

EJ wrote:
 (And, René... please stop kvetching, and sign
> up with PayPal already.)
>
> Eddie

I hope you are joking here, Eddie, because else you should have been banned from the forum for offending a forum-member (my dictionary didn't find the word "kvetching", but I found out it wasn't meant very nicely). Well, THAT would be the real joke: banned from your own forum! :-)

Time will tell if you're are a visionair or have chosen the wrong option. I just wanted to show the other side of this choise. It's a pitty you consider a different view as "nagging". Of course it's your choise, your music, your site (and over here very much your fan-base), but as soon as you bring something in public it's logical you can expect other views than just the majority on this forum.

Good luck.



Post Edited (10-18-10 12:34)

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: BadBay 
Date:   10-18-10 12:58

from the Urban Dictionary ...

"Yiddish. a lesser form of complaining."

It sounded as if it was a tongue-in-cheek retort.
It is hardly one of the seven words that cannot be spoken on-the-air à la George Carlin.


Lenore



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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Dicky 
Date:   10-18-10 20:29

and I thought it was only the Poms!

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: EJ 
Date:   10-18-10 21:10

It is probably a mistake for me to get into it with you, René, but you seem to be arguing for some principle that the subscription concept violates.  You are correct that this is a public forum that should be welcoming to contrary views, such as yours; but I have given my reasons and principles for changing the artist/fan interaction model, I feel it is incumbent upon you to define the 'principle' that you seem to be arguing for.  Let's hear it, I'm interested.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: luis32957 
Date:   10-19-10 03:42

hey EJ it's all good we're behind you 110%
just bring on what you want we're here for you
god bless

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: none too soon 
Date:   10-19-10 11:53

The principle is quite easy, Eddie: it's a free access to goods - goods I'm willing to pay for more than for a membership. It is as if I have to pay admission charge for entering a store in which I might buy something.

In fact the first trouble I had with the lounge was when also information on for example the new album was only available there for a while; as if you had to pay for information - the opposite of the whole idea behind the internet.

Don't get me wrong, I think the lounge is perfect for things like downloads of video-clips, access to tickets, meet-and-greet etc.

Of course I understand you need a certain financial base to do make your artistic live possible, but as a free consumer, who is no less a true supporter of many artists than a lounge-member, I feel I'm limited in my freedom to enlarge my music collection.

Well, I know I'm alone in this one on this forum, but I also know outside there are more who just want to buy the new album, nothing more nothing less.

kvetched, kvetch·ing, kvetch·es
To complain persistently and whiningly (according to the Free Dictionary).

I rest my case; I've cursed in this church long enough.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: guitarorama 
Date:   10-19-10 13:45

Heya,

Thanks Eddie for having the vision to challenge a paradigm. Physical product will be going the way of the dinosaur soon enough, and while I will miss the concept of "holding the new album in my hand" complete with cover art and whatnot... its a nostalgic ritual which I will recall fondly. It took me awhile to adjust to album art in a jewel case size as opposed to a larger vinyl jacket, this will be just another evolution. Delivery methods vs content.

My local NPR/Jazz station just completed their fund drive. I see no difference in concept... paying for my website hosting once a year, or a magazine subscription once a year.

A credit card I havent had, but Pay-Pal I do !!!

Love and deepest respect,

Karl

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: EJ 
Date:   10-19-10 22:58

I am genuinely interested in your point of view, René, and thanks for taking the time to explain it more thoroughly. I think I understand your POV, however, I would counter your position with the following points: firstly, there are several successful shopping 'clubs' in the US: stores like Costco, that are very inexpensive to shop at if you purchase a membership. The membership creates an incentive to shoppers to continue to shop at the store, and the shoppers end up saving money.

Secondly, I actually consider this decision to be a deliberate move away from the whole concept of selling 'goods,' and instead, a move toward the broader concept of building a community of folks to whom I represent more than just being a prog keyboard player with a new album (that they may or may not choose to buy). I am essentially asking for more of a commitment from my supporters so I can rely on their patronage over the longer term and, in return, focus all of my time and attention to developing the U-Z and UKZ projects; hopefully providing insight and inspiration to younger musicians in the process; giving a broader look behind the scenes of my world; and providing more music and videos from the vaults at low or no cost.

Perhaps you are in the majority in that you are "more willing to pay for goods than for a membership" (even though the cost may be the same and you still get the goods!), however, the ever-diminishing free-market model of retail distribution of physical discs that you support, encroaches on MY freedom to choose NOT to participate in the retail distribution structure, as it exists. For me, it is a failing, anachronistic industry that often involves, from my side, having binding legal agreements with mega-corporations (I am currently closing down my arrangement with Inner-Knot, which has an arrangement through ADA Distribution, which is a Warner Bros. company), as well as much accounting, stock-keeping, and shipping paperwork and up-front expenses - all of which I am expected to continue so you can feel like a 'free consumer'? At the end of the day, for all my time, effort, and investment, I may make $3 from your retail purchase. Most of the remaining $15 (or more, in Japan) goes to paying for your freedom to purchase from the retailer of your choice.

I realize that I risk losing CD sales to the 'free consumers' who don't want to make the minor commitment of an annual membership, but that should be my choice - to sell CDs in retail, alongside Madonna's, or give them away at near cost directly within the Zealots community.

It is clear that the membership/commitment concept apparently feels challenging to your freedom of choice... even though you still have the choices to join the Zealots; download the album illegally from Bit Torrent for free; buy it from Japan for $40; or wait until the Spring when it should be available on Amazon and perhaps in some retail. What is less clear to me with your position, is that I chose not to deliver any recorded music at all for 20 years... but now that I AM releasing my first full CD in two decades, I am now "limiting your freedom to enlarge your music collection," because of my choice to ease out of a retail structure which is probably not going to exist in 5 years.

Anyway, that is my point of view... discussion and counter-opinion by all is welcome. Let me also say that the Zealots is certainly not an elitist or exclusive club (or a "church"), it is merely an extension of this forum community, and is open to everybody. Hope we see you in there, René.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Dusty 
Date:   10-19-10 23:45

Dicky kvetched:

>and I thought it was only the Poms!

Hey, me too! (Not that I'm whingeing...)

;^)



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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Yasu 
Date:   10-20-10 00:27

Eddie,I always agree with you !
Your point of view is to the point.
I have trusted you for 32years.

All your works are quite excellent.
I'M looking forward to YOUR FIRST FULL CD in two decades !!!



Post Edited (10-20-10 00:28)

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: ferrari801 
Date:   10-20-10 00:51

Amen to that !!!

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Helen 
Date:   10-20-10 02:33

Eddie wrote:

"I am essentially asking for more of a commitment from my supporters..."

For richer or poorer, in sickness and health, until death us do part...

All for you Eddie.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: BadBay 
Date:   10-20-10 14:55

I understand your point, René ... you want free access to purchase goods (and obtain information). And, I also acknowledge your lack of interest in joining the Z'Lounge. What is creating a level of cognitive dissonance for me, is that your actions and words tend to be at odds with one another. On one hand you state that you are a fan of Eddie's music, yet the other hand eschews pretty much everything except his music. That too, is still within the realm of my comprehension - that someone might like only his music and have no use for him or developing friendships with his fans, but in that case, those individuals would not even bother to be a member of this forum. It would just seem that anyone who claims to be a serious fan of Eddie's would want to join the Zealots to not only be supportive of his work, but also to share in the camaraderie with other like-minded people. I'm not questioning your level of "fan-hood" (or should that be "fan-dom?"), but you've been here on the forum for quite some time, and you communicate when you want to get your point across, but you don't seem to embrace the community vibe. While I do not intend this next question to sound snarky, I'm not sure how to phrase it in such a way that it doesn't come off as such ... so, please keep an open mind, and I will just say it ... why are you even here on the forum? I'm not suggesting that you leave or don't participate, but you seem so miserable here and it's unclear as to why you subject yourself to such angst. Information about Eddie's releases, concert dates, and the like are readily available on his Facebook page with no need to join anything or participate whatsoever. Similarly, one can merely read the Zealots' news page on the website for basic information ... again, with no need to identify yourself or interact with others.

Despite what you may surmise, ours is not a community of sychophants, who mindlessly follow Eddie, while blathering canned platitudes in his direction. I think if you got to know us (and allowed us to know you), collectively and individually on levels that encompass more than our reactions to your chosen role as 'odd-man-out,' you might be pleasantly surprised to find a comfortable resting place with us. We are all individuals with unique personalities and interests, who have come together because we are drawn to Eddie's music, and in many cases, we enjoy the company of one another.

All of that said, if you wish to continue with us (and I for one, sincerely hope that you will consider it) ... what can the rest of us do to make your time here more palatable for you? Not that any of us will be kowtowing to any singular individual's desires, but we are a community that strives to accommodate the greater good of its members.


Lenore



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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Takako 
Date:   10-21-10 09:34

Dear Eddie,

I read your declaration about new Zealots Subscription Model with mixed emotions.
As an aesthetician and a philosopher of art, I always realized that this century is a really difficult time for the egenuinef art, and especially the artist (like you) to create it. Among the art genres, music is in the most critical moment. Music seems to be almost dead now in ethis unbelieving centuryf, as you mentioned about the decline of the traditional music industry. Most people do not listen to music but just consume it. I can really understand your thought and it is painfully right.

What a shame about my lack of the capability to make you freely create your own music like the patrons in those days. I always think about that to make a serious artwork is like to throw a message in a bottle to the ocean. The only thing you can do is to wait for someone to receive it. (Hopefully there will still be some beautiful opportunity left for the next generation to appreciate your wonderful music as a physical thing like CD or a record or some other thing. But probably you are right that this is a kind of nostalgia, and there must be a nicer existence which I do not know. I prefer a book to a digital text, anyway.) That is why you need a patron/patrons to support you to realize this sublime act.@

At the same time, I am truly moved about your decision to do your best to live up to our, your true (but sometimes greedy) fansf expectations. Not you but we have to do our best to live up to your expectations. It is also not very easy to establish a new (music) subscription model. But I do believe you as always and hope it will be a successful challenge and a stable step to a big change.

Yes, I would be delighted to join you. There are humble contributions that we could make.

Lots of love,

Takako

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: calyx 
Date:   10-21-10 10:13

Can I ask a simple question ?
I've read some of the discussions but I'm not sure the answer is readily available.

i'm interested in getting the new live CD asap, possibly not waiting until it's available on Amazon or select record stores.

I live in France.

The simple question is this :

How much will it cost me to get it (Zealots sub + price of the CD + P&P), and will there be an easy way to pay whatever this amounts to (20 ? 30 ? 35 dollars ?) with a regular (in my case Mastercard) credit card ?

It doesn't make that much difference to me in the end whether I become a member of a club or not in the process if the cost and procedures are akin to buying the CD the "traditional" way.

Then after that, if having become a member does entitle me to further advantages in the future, like cheaper prices, downloads etc., that's great obviously.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: none too soon 
Date:   10-21-10 12:01

Alternative Subscription Model

Because I think the Zealots model might scare too many people of now, maybe some alternatives might be considered, with some thought in mind:
a. the cd-market might fall down, especcially the progressive rock-market is still very active and the fans still like their music in phantistic covers;
b. other forums learn that many people still search for the "Buy" button;
c. people (maybe myself too) have to get used to the model, so it may be more attractive to turn it upside down: not the cd is the bonus, but the membership.

This could mean that there will be the following options:

$ xx - get the cd (including shipping)

$ xx + $ 5 - get the cd (including shipping) and one year membership

$ xx + $10 - get a SIGNED cd (including shipping and one year membership

Of course this will work only when there's a cd available. This year should be no trouble. Next year should see some new UKZ-music maybe. And maybe by then people are so used to the membership, they don't want to miss it anymore, even if there isn't a cd available.

Just a thought, Eddie.



Dear Lenore,

Thank you for your time to try to understand the reasons for me being a member of this forum. Let me begin to tell that you got the wrong impression that I just seek for information. It was just the other way around: I joined because I had information to share! Indeed, Eddie Jobson related information. At that point (more than three years ago) the forum was still an open, friendly one, where people could give their opinions freely, without the fear of treated like an outstander when you had some possitive criticism. That quickly changed though, although you may think this isn't so; objective viewing and missing members who were active in the beginning tell a different story. When you read the three posts before yours you can't say this isn't a community who follow Eddie mindlessly. It's scary! That's why I decided not to share my viewpoints and information anymore. But because you took your time, I think you deserve an honest answer, although that won't satisfy you, because it is more a confirmation of the way you think I am thinking about this forum.

Well, you're right about one thing: I'm a fan of Eddie's MUSIC. I'm even more into the music of his forum colleague, Allan Holdsworth. I try to support both (and many) by buying their music, write reviews in a magazine, play their music in a weekly progrock radio-show, etc. If people want to do more: that's fine with me; I don't care much for the title "the most serious fan".

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: ferrari801 
Date:   10-21-10 12:28

Be careful about making personal comments calling people mindless,My comment was a joke based upon Eddie saying this is not a church,Far from mindless there are many intelligent and loyal people on this Forum.I actually agree that you have some valid points but that does not give you the right to start slating people you know nothing about.I believe its real simple.Join the Zealots lounge if you wish and dont if its not for you,As the Artist and therefore the one taking all the risks and bearing all the costs Eddie has the right to market his work the way he sees best fit.I believe that you should continue to offer your opinions here but the sarcasm will only get you ignored Regards Adrian

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Corbie 
Date:   10-21-10 13:12


A potential problem I can foresee with the "Alternative Subscription Model" is that it requires new, available and desirable product in order to work. My understanding is that its the subscriptions, the patronage, that will make it possible for there to be new product in the first place. It's all getting a bit chicken and egg, isn't it?!
none too soon wrote:

> Alternative Subscription Model
>
> Because I think the Zealots model might scare too many people
> of now, maybe some alternatives might be considered, with some
> thought in mind:
> a. the cd-market might fall down, especcially the progressive
> rock-market is still very active and the fans still like their
> music in phantistic covers;
> b. other forums learn that many people still search for the
> "Buy" button;
> c. people (maybe myself too) have to get used to the model, so
> it may be more attractive to turn it upside down: not the cd is
> the bonus, but the membership.
>
> This could mean that there will be the following options:
>
> $ xx - get the cd (including shipping)
>
> $ xx + $ 5 - get the cd (including shipping) and one year
> membership
>
> $ xx + $10 - get a SIGNED cd (including shipping and one year
> membership
>
> Of course this will work only when there's a cd available. This
> year should be no trouble. Next year should see some new
> UKZ-music maybe. And maybe by then people are so used to the
> membership, they don't want to miss it anymore, even if there
> isn't a cd available.
>
> Just a thought, Eddie.
>
>
>
> Dear Lenore,
>
> Thank you for your time to try to understand the reasons for me
> being a member of this forum. Let me begin to tell that you got
> the wrong impression that I just seek for information. It was
> just the other way around: I joined because I had information
> to share! Indeed, Eddie Jobson related information. At that
> point (more than three years ago) the forum was still an open,
> friendly one, where people could give their opinions freely,
> without the fear of treated like an outstander when you had
> some possitive criticism. That quickly changed though, although
> you may think this isn't so; objective viewing and missing
> members who were active in the beginning tell a different
> story. When you read the three posts before yours you can't say
> this isn't a community who follow Eddie mindlessly. It's scary!
> That's why I decided not to share my viewpoints and information
> anymore. But because you took your time, I think you deserve an
> honest answer, although that won't satisfy you, because it is
> more a confirmation of the way you think I am thinking about
> this forum.
>
> Well, you're right about one thing: I'm a fan of Eddie's MUSIC.
> I'm even more into the music of his forum colleague, Allan
> Holdsworth. I try to support both (and many) by buying their
> music, write reviews in a magazine, play their music in a
> weekly progrock radio-show, etc. If people want to do more:
> that's fine with me; I don't care much for the title "the most
> serious fan".

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: guitarorama 
Date:   10-21-10 15:06

Heya,

Imo... the traditional "Prog" market is every bit as stuck in the mud as Rap or any other pop genre. If a Prog album comes out which doesnt have lyric/vocals and airbrushed artwork of Hobbits and Dragons it gets panned.

At one time, back in the day if you will, UK was in the same record store category as the BeeGee's. They were both "Rock" and that was sufficient categorization to find the physical product in the bin. Were they remotely similar ? Of course not.

Music is now about stratification, and there are so many sub-genres in any given meta-genre that its impossible to locate anything.

So how does an artist, with a desire to put food on the table for his/her family, go about the tasks of creating works which can be exchanged in some fashion for those basics ? Creating music or art (or anything, really) takes TIME. There are only 24 hrs in any given day. If 18 hrs need to be assigned to staple and basic needs of existence, not much is left for that free expression. Economics would say "create something which would sell big, bang for the buck" - but true creation and expression of the human spirit isnt exactly in vogue these days, doesnt have a big demographic, and thanks to the I-net model is assumed by many to be free.

Lacking a sufficient fan base to try something like this myself, I have often considered applying for government grants sometimes given to artists. Ya gotta have food on the table, though starvation is often a motivator in itself.

Imo... let there be Progress. The root word of Progressive. Imo... Prog today is every bit as niche-based and predefined as any other sub-genre. Money grubbing music industy vermin not-withstanding, I am personally delighted by the idea of a new distribution model. Any form of progress might have its own set of growing pains, which no doubt Stephen Foster faced with attempting to market his craft with the sales of printed sheet music.

Karl

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: benonemusic 
Date:   10-21-10 17:33

René,

>At that point (more than three years ago) the forum was still an open, friendly one, where people could give their opinions freely, without the fear of treated like an outstander when you had some possitive criticism. That quickly changed though, although you may think this isn't so; objective viewing and missing members who were active in the beginning tell a different story.

I disagree. Am I less accepting of a moderator than Webmaster? I have not had to remove a post or a member, and I hope Lenny, Gogo, or I never have to do so. My disagreements may occasionally be strong, but I try to be as respectful as possible in stating them. Please feel free to search the archives of what I have said. I did so earlier this evening to make sure. I am really okay with disagreements and different opinions; my main concern is that we are courteous, fair and constructive.

>When you read the three posts before yours you can't say this isn't a community who follow Eddie mindlessly. It's scary! That's why I decided not to share my viewpoints and information anymore.

I find this disingenuous. Helen and Yasu have been here since the beginning, and Dusty nearly so. By saying they follow Eddie mindlessly, this can be considered an insult by any definition. I believe they love Eddie and his music mindfully. Did you mean to insult them? I hope you tell us you did not. I hope you consider apologizing to them.

I want back the old René, the erudite, knowledgeable, enjoyable René who was mainly known for his keen recollections of Eddie's music.

Can we get him back?

Ben

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Dusty 
Date:   10-21-10 23:32

No apology necessary... (no experience needed ;^)))



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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Helen 
Date:   10-22-10 00:48

I don't mind at all, being mindless and all.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Yasu 
Date:   10-22-10 01:07

Thanks,Ben.
Ben pointed out,>my main concern is that we are courteous, fair and constructive<
This is very impotrtant.
We all may say anything,but this place is Eddie Jobson Forum.
Generally speaking, most musicians are quite sensitive. Therefore they can make sublime works a lot. And they are also sensitive about criticism.
So, we should be thoughtful.

Of course, I am an enthusiastic fan of Eddie's.My attitude may seem to be uncritical to Eddie.That's OK. I don't mind.
As we know, it's no wonder that there are a lot of fans like me here.
I would like Eddie to keep good emotions any time,otherwise Eddie can hardly do good jobs.
So,when there is some advice to Eddie (or other forum members), anybody should keep thoughtful attitude,thoughtful words.

I respect Ren in that he has plenty of knowledge about various kinds of superb music.He has guided us alot of precious information.So,I asked him not to move on EJ Forum last year just as Webmaster moved on. He must be the person that has the most knowledge about other music in this forum.

Anyway ,let's go on constructive discussion with courteous,fair and thoughtful mind !



Post Edited (10-22-10 05:06)

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Helen 
Date:   10-22-10 01:16

If there is one person who is truly not "mindless" it is Yasu!

Yasu is a total gentleman, the kindest soul I've ever come across, and Eddie's very devoted fan in the true sense of the word.

My nature is to turn the other cheek. My previous response is out of character, but I couldn't resist.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Faas 
Date:   10-22-10 05:10

As Helen has said it earlier, I also couldn't resist either to have a bit of my opinion.

The way I see it is this, but correct me if I'm wrong. As I recall, this forum was meant originally to talk about Eddie's music and his music only. We all know why Eddie decided to turn his back to 'stardom' back in the '80s, his love for the most precious art (imo that is), again... Music, and not business.

Eddie has told us several times that he didn't know that he had such dedicated fans and when finding out we, the 'fans', were just one of probably many reasons for him to step back in the spotlights again, (but not an unimportant one I sense).

It is based on our mutual respect (Eddie vs. us en vice versa) that Eddie not only talked about how he sees music, but sharing his truly personal and honest feelings and with that showing us his true character, humble and self-assured, and always with respect and love. It would have been very easy for Eddie to stay out of it all while we blabber about. It is also this trust we might have given Eddie that made him decide to open up, even explaining what he dislikes the most about music, namely the music business and not the art.

I've read this thread several times over and over, and so far I've seen 'polite' insults and accusations, though it could be worse (But PLEASE don't let that happen) and people defending themselves, but what hurts me the most is that we talk about Eddie's BUSINESS while we just should mind our own and let him do what he does best, making beautiful adventurous music from a beautiful adventurous mind and with, YES, an adventurous business approach. Oh yeah, THAT's what I missed in this thread... Did I mention Music???

As a long time member and fan I might be somewhat biased, but so be it. Through the ears of the beholder words can be both offensive and soothing, defensive and mean (sorry, I'm also a fan of contradictions).

It's up to each and everyone of us to decide where we stand. If you stand for business I suggest Donald Trump, if you stand for music I suggest Eddie. I for one would be ashamed if this forum would turn out to be a reminder for Eddie to step away from the spotlights again because of business.

So can we get back to the business of the day, waiting for some musical adventure already?

With love and respect,

Marcel

The Netherlands

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: benonemusic 
Date:   10-22-10 06:07

Marcel, Yasu, and Helen,
Thanks for your replies. I wanted to add a couple of thoughts.

First of all, my behavior is different than when the forum began because Eddie asked me to be a moderator. I take this volunteer task seriously and literally, trying to be a "moderating influence" to promote civility and mutual respect in the forum.

I am okay about discussing the business model, but as a moderator I believe it isn't fair to *excessively* critique or question the business model before Eddie has had a chance to try it out. To me, it is like critiquing or nitpicking an announced computer hardware product such as a smartphone or tablet before anyone has had a chance to try it out. And those who are not sure if the subscription model is right for them are not shut out from information once the Zealots Lounge opens--they could find out from others who have tried it. And I encourage everyone to give their honest and candid opinion of the site when it opens (my moderator voice).

Perhaps I should do a better job of separating my moderator voice from my personal voice--I will try to do so in the future.

I agree with Yasu very much that we should try to be supportive of Eddie (personal opinion), as this is good for him.

When I feel other members are being criticized or insulted, I will step in (moderator role). I am aware that the comment that I referenced earlier was directed to the entire community being mindless (which doesn't make sense because we are all part of the community), but the references to the three earlier posts are tied to individuals and this was too close to the bone for me.

Hope this increases understanding of where I am coming from.

Thanks,
Ben

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: benonemusic 
Date:   10-22-10 06:32

So I feel I've just set myself up to be attacked for not doing a better job of separating my moderator role and personal voice.

And I shouldn't have changed the focus from Eddie's business model and the comment about the three users to my role for moderator on the forum. Maybe I feel too much responsibility for this.

I need to be away from the forum for a while today.

But I am just trying to do my best job in my role on this forum.

I appreciate what everyone can do to help and cooperate.

Ben


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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Helen 
Date:   10-22-10 07:00

Dear Marcel, I don't know what it is about you, but you always manage to bring tears to my eyes.

Yasu, you're soothing balm for a bruised heart (not ego!). I don't like it when people upset each other. Life's too short...

And Ben, when you're around, all is well in the world.

I love you guys. Thank you.

Helen



Post Edited (10-22-10 08:12)

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Lenny 
Date:   10-22-10 07:29

Eddie is trying out a way for him to sell music and to find out how much interest there are for new EJ music.
The subscription model is a great way for this.
...and as Eddie is a humble person, it'll probably be a bargain for us, the fans.

I see far more possibilities than limitations - for the fans and the artist.

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: BadBay 
Date:   10-22-10 15:28

This has certainly been a varied discussion, and I would like to thank everyone who participated for remaining level-headed, and not requiring us to don rubber hip boots to wade through the muck.

It appears that some of us will have to agree to disagree when it comes to the new sales model, as well as Eddie’s future business practices. The bottom line is that this is his house ... he gets to make the rules. I firmly believe that it is possible to respectfully disagree with him (and one another), while also wholeheartedly offering support to explore alternatives.

Finally, I would like to highlight a few of the comments elicited from this thread that might have been overlooked in the ruckus. See below.

See you soon in the Z’Lounge!

Lenore



from Takako:

I always think about that to make a serious artwork is like to throw a message in a bottle to the ocean. The only thing you can do is to wait for someone to receive it.

from Karl:

Imo... let there be Progress. The root word of Progressive. Imo... Prog today is every bit as niche-based and predefined as any other sub-genre. Money grubbing music industy vermin not-withstanding, I am personally delighted by the idea of a new distribution model. Any form of progress might have its own set of growing pains, which no doubt Stephen Foster faced with attempting to market his craft with the sales of printed sheet music.

from Lenny:

I see far more possibilities than limitations - for the fans and the artist.

from Marcel:

Oh yeah, THAT's what I missed in this thread... Did I mention Music???



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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: miar 
Date:   10-22-10 15:34

Spot on, Lenore :=)

Mia


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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Dusty 
Date:   10-22-10 19:20

Reluctant tho' I be to "wade through the muck"...

...I *am* rather partial to "rubber hip boots" (they're so dignified...)

Hope I'm not too late on this, but I just wanna throw my clarification into the sea of clarifications; to wit:

Firstly, I really have no strong views either way on how or why EJ should sell/market his music. It is a matter for him. I appreciate he has taken the time to explain to us here some of his plans for the future. I also understand you can't make all the people happy all the time.

Secondly, I said no apology was needed (also taking the opp to make a pitifully weak Yes-reference) simply because if you actually take the time to re-read none too soon's relevant post you will see that he was not actually referring to me! Therefore, I'm not insulted.

Finally, I would just reiterate my gratitude for the existence of this forum - for a host of reasons - and any discussion on Eddie is welcome AFAIC and won't change the fact I'm a massive fan of the guy.



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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: gogo 
Date:   10-22-10 21:18

Eddie:

Totally cool.

Great thoughts...all good.

Don't forget to have FUN with all of this.....

I think this music, and the wild violins are the best.

Keep the party alive.
love
Gogo

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Nao from Japan 
Date:   10-26-10 14:59

Thank you Eddie! You can count on support from many Japanese supporters.

Naoyoshi Aoyama

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Corbie 
Date:   10-27-10 02:35

It's a done deal as far as I'm concerned. I'm already a Zealot's member: All I need now is to be told how to sign up to the new package and I'm off!

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: BadBay 
Date:   10-27-10 10:51

From the L.A. Times ... another interesting model for music distribution:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-1026-ct-tunecore-20101023,0,7775672.story

This business has truly become a DIY endeavor ... for the better, I believe.

Lenore



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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Patric 
Date:   12-15-10 12:04

Ahem...

Happy belated b-day present to myself... I am now a fellow Zealot!!!

LOVE the videos!!!

Best to all,
Bill

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: BadBay 
Date:   12-15-10 12:33

Congratulations Bill!


Lenore



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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: miar 
Date:   12-15-10 13:26

Wohoo! Congrats, Bill!

Mia


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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: Yasu 
Date:   12-15-10 15:31

Good News!!

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: fatman 
Date:   12-22-10 16:51

May I ask how much is the annual subscription to the Zealots lounge, and where do I go if I wanted to join? I don't see it on this site, but maybe I am not looking in the right place.

Thanks,
Jeff

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 Re: Zealots Subscription Model
Author: czarekjn 
Date:   12-22-10 17:55

http://www.zealotslounge.com/

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